Ctrl + Alt + Deceive

Episode 18 of Wired Together, “Ctrl + Alt + Deceive,” explores the history of fake news—from snake-oil salesmen and the Brooklyn Bridge scam to yellow journalism—and connects it to today’s AI deepfakes and viral misinformation. Jason and Melanie share simple ways to spot manipulation, why local, trusted voices matter, and how future “authenticators” could help. A friendly chat about discernment, tech culture, and the importance of teaching truth from trickery.

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🎧 Wired Together is produced by WinternetWeb Technologies, a family-run web design and tech studio based in Bracey, Virginia.
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Transcript

Melanie 0:07

Welcome, it is episode eighteen of Wired Together with uh your host, Melanie Winter.

Jason 0:15

And Jason Winter.

Melanie 0:17

And um I will actually say the the title of this one, it'll be on um on the screen, but also it's just fun. Control alt deceive.

Jason 0:26

Yeah, definitely um definitely kind of interesting, and it will make sense as we go along.

Melanie 0:32

But so yeah, we're not necessarily beating a dead horse, but you know, we we have been mentioning um more than once on um you know the fakeness of AI and um you know how do we navigate through this, how do we navigate cons? That we, you know.

Jason 0:50

Sure.

Melanie 0:51

Um so we have mentioned this in in small little tidbits. Um this is kind of more of a deep dive. And it is um, I'm gonna call this one a fun fact day.

Jason 1:03

Yeah.

Melanie 1:04

So we we've done some some digging.

Jason 1:07

Kind of looking historically, like, you know, if AI is used this way now, when it first came out, oh, that's cool. And then all of a sudden now, you know, even your grandparents or your kids will be like, oh, that's AI. And it's like, wait, you're now using that word?

Melanie 1:21

You know, it it evolved very quickly, but yeah, it's kind of well in our premises, everything's just kind of a sandwich on itself. So, you know, uh pretty much how we operate with uh wired together and Winternet Web is is that old and new foundation. So um technology is really just things that have um changed either make our life easier or harder throughout throughout history. Um, but for the same thing, it's it the human experience, the the history is still very much the same.

Jason 1:55

We love the history, it really kind of puts things in perspective. It does. And so, you know, as as we've done this before or people raising kids in 2025.

Melanie 2:05

Um we use a lot of history, uh, our personal histories, you know, especially when it comes to that kind of thing. Where, you know, we want to teach uh certain things that are just um have always been right, you know, that um that real true foundation. So, you know, um that spiritual foundation, that belief system, um, you know, who we are as people. And um so our our children are you know, they they learn a lot about these things, not just in the tech technological world, but you know, it's a deeper dive.

Jason 2:43

Sure.

Melanie 2:44

So, you know, the human matters in the whole thing. And so, you know, one thing that you know that we kind of get a lot of that these days, nowadays, yeah, um, you know, is this you know, so we do live in an area where um we've got more retirees than we really have that young family. Um, and so um a lot of you know, when technology just kind of has gone way beyond where you're oh sure.

Jason 3:16

Which your the comfort level.

Melanie 3:18

Right. Your comfort level is, you know, it it all of a sudden becomes, you know, well, I don't believe anything, you know, I'm I'm I'm done with all of it. I'm done with these days, I'm done with and so we kind of wanted to go into are we really being duped now more than ever? Right with cons, with technology, with you know, what's what's happening now? Um, where things are, you know, it's not hard to con people now because you can con them online. You don't even have to see them.

Jason 3:48

With the technology, it makes it that much more, I guess, ubiquitous. It's right they can really reach you quite.

Melanie 3:54

And so it does kind of see feel very forefronted, it does feel very, you know, violating. Um, and so yes, I totally agree with that being a you know, that's terrifying.

Jason 4:05

Yeah, definitely.

Melanie 4:06

Um, and so you know, that's kind of Winternet Web is is here to help. Yeah, in that when, you know, when things are don't look right, don't feel right, guess what, they're not.

Jason 4:19

Um call your your we're reached out.

Melanie 4:23

Call your most trusted, valuable person that knows technology and and ask if that's not right, because if it feels not right, it's not. Um, but you know, look, are we just only duped now? Not necessarily.

Jason 4:36

I don't think so. I've I've had plenty of examples, and you know, I know you're talking historically, but I got a comical one if you want to hear it. Sure. Um, I mean this is geez, our oldest daughter was um maybe two, three, I guess. And oh, I know. Yeah. So, and you know, looking online, finding Christmas gifts and everything, and I find these beanbags, I'm like, she would love to like lounge in a bean bag in the living room, read a book, whatever. So I'm looking at a bunch of them, and you know, of course you look at one, then you're scrolling and looking through a bunch. And then I almost decided on one. And then in like the other products you may like, I saw an Elmo one. So I was like, Alright, let me click on that one instead. I'm like, oh, that's perfect. Add to cart order. Like, good. Pretty good price, 25 bucks. Elmo bean bag and everything. So it showed up in the mail, and it was about the size of a small orange. And I'm looking at that and I'm like, how how criminal? Like, and then I'm sitting there thinking, but I didn't read the reviews. And now, see, I read reviews probably a lot more now because of that story. But I read the reviews- I think you read reviews. I read the re I read the reviews of the other ones. I just got trigger happy and went, no, I don't know about the unicorn, you know, or whatever. Elmo, that one, click, you know, figuring they're all the same. But no, I was wrong. I have no idea, um, you know, whether looking back, whether it actually gave the dimensions, you know, probably gave it in millimeters or something. Oh, that looks big. And um, but yeah, so I have a $25, you know, I could put it on a keychain, you know, pretty much.

Melanie 6:19

So she doesn't have a beanbag or didn't. Right. Really doesn't now, but um pretty much a hacky sack. Yep.

Jason 6:28

Yeah, it's about hacky sack, yep. So, yeah. Those things happen though.

Melanie 6:33

So, you know, we we do get duped.

Jason 6:35

Yeah, we do.

Melanie 6:36

You know, um this I do remember the idea of being duped as a small child, not um, you know, being from here. I didn't see a whole lot of people I wasn't, you know, didn't already know or wasn't already related to, you know.

Jason 6:56

Sure.

Melanie 6:56

And and not that we were that closed off, but you know, you do living in a small area, you're you know, you're familiar with where you're going and people and stuff like that. Um and as a young child, we went to uh New York City.

Jason 7:12

New York City.

Melanie 7:14

It was uh Christmas, it was kind of that Christmas time period when we went to the Rockefeller Center and all of that.

Jason 7:20

How incredibly terrifying. No.

Melanie 7:22

Well, it as a small child from from the six, it was uh it was terrifying. Right. I mean, I mean it's it's like but you know, I I had my parents and you know they had been so you know they traveled and all, and it's and you know it's what it is. Definitely familiar with cities, so I was I I felt like I was with trusted people, but it was the first time I actually learned about like the the duping on the streets, the the people that would you know stand there with the cases or uh in their jackets of trench coat salesmen. Items of you know, watches and stuff like that, and they're not real, they're they're fake.

Jason 7:57

Right, yeah.

Melanie 7:57

And so, you know, I remember my father explaining that you know they're they're selling these things, but they're not real, you know. Right. So they're saying uh I don't remember the watch, it's big time watch at the time.

Jason 8:09

Uh the Psycho um Rolex. Rolex, yes. So it's like it's supposed to be Rolexes, but they're not like a thousand dollar Rolex. That kind of thing.

Melanie 8:19

And and I'd never seen something like that before. I did not know that kind of thing existed. And you know, to me, the of course, as far as shopping and you know, um brand names was nothing. Right. I didn't even think about it, but you know, it it's it's a thing, you know, to to like the brands of stuff, and and so you know, being explained, well, this is a fake watch. It's like it looks like a watch to me.

Jason 8:44

Yeah, it looks like I saw it. You showed it to me, right?

Melanie 8:49

So I remember being very confused, but also, you know, that was that first kind of concept of you know, I guess that con. Yeah, when you then you realize it could happen, you know, wow, I need on the streets.

Jason 9:03

Gosh, that's interesting.

Melanie 9:05

So, you know, we're kind of talking in that historical nature of being conned, right, you know, or or being duped, or you know, the fake news of things.

Jason 9:17

Sure, sure.

Melanie 9:18

And you know, um, I mean, we've all been to a carnival.

Jason 9:22

Well, yeah, and those games are rigged, as we all know. Right. Um, and it's like, look, see me do it. Yeah, because you're standing behind the table and you're at that angle or whatever, you know.

Melanie 9:32

You know, and like magic shows and stuff like that. It's technically just duping, you know, but it's cut her in half. Doing it in such a way that's you know, at least fantastic, you know, fantastic and interesting, and you're entertained. Exactly. And just like the the fellas on the New York streets, you know, it's entertaining. Um, you know, most people were ignoring them, you know.

Jason 9:53

Because they know, right, yeah, it's kind of it loses its, yeah.

Melanie 9:58

You know, it's kind of an old world kind of concept. And of course, they're not trying to dupe you online, like you know, with your story with the beanbag, you know, it's it oops, we did purchase something that was not even close to the you know what we thought.

Jason 10:14

Right.

Melanie 10:15

But um, yes, uh so kind of going into like the fun facts of cons through history.

Jason 10:22

Yeah.

Melanie 10:23

Um, so like the earliest kind of notable con. Um, and and you can pronounce that.

Jason 10:32

Oh, it is it's uh Hedistratus, some we were cousins. Um Hegestratus. Hedestratus, I guess. It's Greek to me.

Melanie 10:38

Hedgey. Hedgee sounds like a great, you know.

Jason 10:41

Hedgey, yeah.

Melanie 10:41

That's what I want to call him.

Jason 10:42

Good old hedgy. Yeah, it's Greek to me. I mean, literally. But about 300 BC, so we're kind of doing some research historically on, you know, is this concept more part of the modern era or how frequent is the duping, if you will? So this guy was a sea merchant, and he took out a loan on his ship and the cargo and all that kind of stuff, and uh then after selling the cargo, he pocketed the loan money. And because as far as the arrangement, if the ship ever sunk, he would get, you know, his money back and all that kind of mess. So then he uh decided to sink the ship. He was caught in the act, and his crew, um you know, I well while he was trying to escape, I drowned him, so he didn't get away with it, I guess. Right.

Melanie 11:36

Um was not a very good connection.

Jason 11:39

No, I mean, you know, hopefully someone took notes and was like, I could have done that better.

Melanie 11:42

Right. But you know, but it's not not a surprising thing for a con to be about money, of course.

Jason 11:48

Oh, yeah, usually it is. It's the currency we all want.

Melanie 11:52

Not a new concept. It is this is a very old concept. We were talking, you know, 300 BC. Yeah, so that's you know, um, yeah, some people will do anything for money.

Jason 12:03

That's right.

Melanie 12:04

And you know, so that's the you know, like the lost air people. Um yeah, um, yeah, I know all over the place, especially it's it's more notable in the kings and queens and that kind of thing. You know, there'll be this lost air that comes out.

Jason 12:21

Um, if you win a lottery ticket now, you'll find family you didn't know you had. I mean, exactly. It's like I don't think I know you don't think right.

Melanie 12:30

Well, it happened in De Carnegie too, you know, and so sometimes in in American history financial right, and that financial pain is it's you know, that taste of something like that, you know. So people con all the time, on you know, especially with money.

Jason 12:45

Right.

Melanie 12:45

Um, which you know brings us to our next con artist, which would be like the most notable of you know, historical con artists. Yeah. The snake oil salesman.

Jason 12:58

Oh, yeah. The snake oil, yeah, that's just snake oil. Right. And we say it all the time.

Melanie 13:03

It's actually as a person who started the original, yes. Um, Clark Stanley. Okay. Um, he is considered the original snake oil salesman. He actually was selling a snake oil that was supposed to just do anything for you, you know, heal you of all your ills.

Jason 13:22

He did it for us popular, well.

Melanie 13:23

And um, so we're talking like eighty late 1800s.

Jason 13:28

Okay.

Melanie 13:28

Um, that kind of time period.

Jason 13:31

In a time period where, like, if we were to talk to, say, our elders, if you will, that they would they would talk about things are much more wholesome when I was a child, or you know, but of course they weren't a child in 1800. Everybody was wholesome back in the day. You know, and it was kind of like this thought process, but we're inundated with it now. But back then, you knew who your snake oil salesman was. You knew who, you know, oh, he took a loan on his uh, you know, ship a kind of person. Right. So you kind of know these people almost by name, but I guess when it all gets together, it well, I believe he was a traveling salesman, so that's probably why he was able to be. He left town, went somewhere else, and he wasn't somebody people were familiar with.

Melanie 14:13

I got you. He was traveling, and so that was the time period of traveling salesman, which you know was a really great thing.

Jason 14:19

I think there's an episode on uh um Wheelhouse in a prayer we saw. Remember the guy with the wagon showed up and they were trying to sell something and all that, and it was kind of you know the the hesitancy of all of that.

Melanie 14:30

Well, yeah, you'd become hesitant when you've got the small group and you trust everybody in the group, and then all of a sudden this new guy comes in.

Jason 14:36

Yeah, it's like who are you? Are you really gonna trust everything that they say?

Melanie 14:40

So well, Clark Stanley made sure that no. Okay, you should not trust everything they say.

Jason 14:46

Right, what a snake.

Melanie 14:47

Um and the snake oil ended up being like that they were able to like break it down, and it was just mineral oil with some additives like beef fat and turpiton, you know. It was not anything that was um going to actually help you.

Jason 15:02

Right. But it feels so nice. So well. What else we got? Who else has really been pivotal, would you say?

Melanie 15:13

Oh, and what and you could most of us have or I guess may have heard, uh, some have heard the the Brooklyn Bridge salesman.

Jason 15:23

Oh, yeah, I remember something about the uh selling the Brooklyn Bridge and So this is more of the 1860s, um George C.

Melanie 15:30

Parker. And uh we're getting at that time period a lot of immigrants, um not English speakers, you know, coming to America.

Jason 15:41

Yeah, hoping hoping to right.

Melanie 15:43

They're already being told, you know, before they come, you know, um, you've got cheap land and you've got you know lots of opportunities and stuff like that. So he's actually using a lot of that concept and the fact that they're you know new and trying to sell things like the Brooklyn Bridge. He did more than just the Brooklyn Bridge, but for the most part, he was considered the Brooklyn Bridge salesman.

Jason 16:06

Right, he was that guy, yeah.

Melanie 16:07

He would pretend that he and with paperwork that he owned the Brooklyn Bridge and trying to sell it to these immigrants. Oh wow, and so they thought they would get something cheap that was really big and that would be, you know, they would get something from it.

Jason 16:21

Sure, yeah.

Melanie 16:22

And so he sold it more times over.

Jason 16:24

So Right, exactly.

Melanie 16:26

You know, mean, very, very mean to take money from these people that are just trying to start a a new excited about a concept and uh in a new air land and that kind of thing. So he he obviously considered a very, very bad fraud.

Jason 16:44

Man, that's crazy.

Melanie 16:45

You know, so it's like is this fake news, this lack of truth? Right new.

Jason 16:55

And so it doesn't appear to be.

Melanie 16:57

I did find a couple of very interesting quotes, and so it's kind of in that taking the idea of these days. Is it just these days? And and um, so one is from Pascal, you know, the 17th century mathematician. Um, you know, we named a computer program like, you know, very important guy.

Jason 17:20

Right.

Melanie 17:20

Um he's got a quote that's truth is so obscure in these times, and falsehood so established that unless we love the truth, we cannot know it. And that was like six hundred years ago or right, and he's talking again these times.

Jason 17:39

So Yeah.

Melanie 17:40

Where is the truth right now? You know, and so he's but he's in the 17th century, and he's still asking, where is the truth?

Jason 17:47

I'm sorry, four I ironically, I didn't do math very well on the mathematician's quote. That is ironic.

Melanie 17:52

Yeah, yeah.

Jason 17:53

I can do math.

Melanie 17:54

He would be very disappointed.

Jason 17:56

Well, he's he's rolling over in his group, and of course we know George Olwell.

Melanie 18:02

You know, oh yeah um a little bit more a little bit newer as far as the 1940s. Um and his his quote that I found that um was also very interesting in a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

Jason 18:21

In a time of a universal deceit.

Melanie 18:24

Again, they're both talking about their time period. I know, and it's like they feel deceived, they feel like things are untrue in their time period, which is not unlike today.

Jason 18:35

I mean, just no, and I know we've talked about it, I don't know if it's come up on the podcast, but how it's like every generation, it's like oh, the generation this day is this generation these days, or whatever, or you know, we forget that sometimes things are in a loop, you know. It passes through, you know, you kind of learn the hard way or whatever, and then you understand, and then you pass that along with you know, it's so time hasn't really is time a string or is time a sandwich?

Melanie 19:04

So it's kind of you know, we do kind of layer ourselves on top of it, you know, itself. And so it does kind of create more of a sandwich style. Is fake news new?

Jason 19:15

Right.

Melanie 19:16

And and well, if you research and do your research on um, you know, we read some articles and stuff like that. No, fake news is not new at all. It's not even a little bit new. Um you want to take the the first one.

Jason 19:31

Yeah, I so in the fake news category, I guess, looking back at Egypt in the 13th century BC, um uh Ramesses the Great, they had a battle of the Kadesh and it was a crushing victory, um is what it was portrayed as. It was actually a stalemate, but that didn't stop him from making all the battle scenes and the way that they're painted on the temples to kind of bolster this image. So the visual propaganda showing the story, and of course, so Ramesses is like telling all his people, we won! Yeah, we yeah, we and we beat them, and they you know and um but it no, it wasn't really so. Of course, you know, it it it shows glory to, I guess, that dynasty, if you will, and it kind of makes it um it controls that narrative of war. So what else we got?

Melanie 20:26

And you've got um Mark Antony and Octavian are campaigning against one another, and so there becomes this political campaign, and you know, uh, we're talking 31 BC, so we're talking, you know, some time ago, we're talking politics, we're talking a political campaign, you know, there's this accusation uh the what do you call it, the the negative uh the smear campaign where you're you know gonna smear your opponent. So um they displayed Mark Anthony as as you know drunken and weak and um you know uh just a terrible person. And so the the smear campaign is is not new either. That is not a new concept of of human history, right? Especially, you know, we got our uh democracy, the idea of voting and and um you know for different candidates from ancient Greece. We did, and so and ancient Rome picked that up as well, and so we've got you know that early concept of sabotage towards campaigners and stuff like that. That was there is nothing new under the sun. Oh, I know that's what's going on nowadays. It seems worse, but only because we're in it. Yeah, and we're but you know, at the time of you know, yes, the Shakespearean play with the death of Caesar, that's a real story, dude. They would kill him. You know, the the political opponent that's you know getting too big for his breeches, we're gonna get rid of him. You know, that's not uncommon.

Jason 22:05

Right. Sure. So yeah, so the political realm, of course, had its own set of, I guess, manipulation of truths. Um commercially also. Um we had the great moon hoax in 1835. So the the New York Sun published a newspaper with articles claiming that uh Herschel, the astronomer, discovered life on the moon. And it included vegetation, animals, you know, all these things.

Melanie 22:37

Well I believe there was pictures. Yeah, I mean yeah, they maybe come up with pictures later, but it just looked very of course, you know.

Jason 22:46

I mean, if if that happened now, we'd be like, really? But I'm or we wouldn't, it would go, no, that's fake. But it was fictional, and it was designed to, of course, make people subscribe to newspaper, or of course to boost sales of it. So you have that motive as well.

Melanie 22:59

And that was, you know, but you know it became especially at that time period, and we've fast forward quite a bit to the 1900s, but you know, newspaper sales became you know something that everybody was striving for. Oh, sure. Um anything you could do to sell a newspaper, anything you could do to, you know, kind of get your your voice out there and become influential and prominent, you know.

Jason 23:27

I said it tabloids later.

Melanie 23:29

Right. Well, yeah, that became really big deal. And um, you know, it of course we all learn this in school, the the idea of yellow journalism that comes up. Um we learn it in and you know, we kind of do scrape over it a little bit. Um you know, I think in education there are certain things where, yeah, we're gonna repeat, we're gonna scrape over, you know, um certain parts of American history.

Jason 24:01

Yeah.

Melanie 24:02

Uh, I feel like this one would probably be a worth a real good classroom. This would be a good unit to a good unit, or at least, you know, real one good day of you know, really discussing why is yellow journalism terrifying.

Jason 24:18

Yeah.

Melanie 24:18

You know, um, which it came about, you know, starting pretty much the the propaganda that started the Spanish-American War. So, you know, a war pretty much broke out in the advent of um or everything that's put together, yeah. We created the name later, I think, but you know, in in that whole concept of you know, we need to use this platform that we have to support something that we're gonna create, right, such as the Spanish-American War. So it got the newspaper um definitely out there, but what it also did was kind of give that idea for a lot of readers this isn't something I trust anymore.

Jason 25:04

Right. They they use their power.

Melanie 25:07

There ended up being kind of the backlash of the yellow journalism that all of a sudden the those big newspapers that were really being influential became less and less um used for you know by the common third.

Jason 25:22

Yeah, people just didn't trust it, so you know.

Melanie 25:24

So little newspapers kind of shot up all over the place. Um I see localizing everything gave those um readers something to to trust.

Jason 25:37

Okay.

Melanie 25:38

Because if you've got you know a newspaper that, you know, has you know our area's weather and you know our local uh high school sports and you know that kind of thing, you know, it that's more trustworthy. You know, I actually do know that that was true.

Jason 25:55

Right.

Melanie 25:56

You know, I I know that kid that ran that you know 40 yards.

Jason 26:00

And you probably know the staff, you know, you know the families and everyone that's mentioned in it.

Melanie 26:05

So yes, and so there becomes this kind of more localized um understanding of okay, well, if we've got the local newspapers and we've got the local uh relationship, now anything that they say that is state or national, right? They're trusted because they are trusted as um people already because they're you know putting the things that are localized.

Jason 26:30

True.

Melanie 26:30

I I trust a local newspaper, therefore if they're publishing national stuff, then that's which of course after that time period pops up into World War II, World War I into, but World War II, you know, where your local newspapers are putting a lot more national situations going on. Everybody needs to know what's going on with the war.

Jason 26:53

Yeah, I mean, becoming a lot more globalized, and you kind of need to know what's so yeah, yeah.

Melanie 26:59

That's great that you know the the local sports team did all right, but you know, what happened?

Jason 27:03

Right.

Melanie 27:04

What happened to Germany? What's going on?

Jason 27:06

You know, I need to know.

Melanie 27:07

And so from there it kind of got bigger and bigger again, where we go from news getting very localized so that it doesn't get you know, we don't get too much propaganda.

Jason 27:17

Sure.

Melanie 27:18

Then after World War II, it was kind of like the propaganda machine built itself back up, right? And then of course we fast forward to you know the the 2000s and and to now where propaganda machine got you know just massive. But we know this. We are aware of the fact that a lot of um trusted news sources, you know, are um kind of getting a lot of the same news, maybe not all of that's right. Um I'm sitting there going, everything's faked. But you know, we did we did also, we're in 2025 now. We live through five years of COVID.

Jason 28:01

We do.

Melanie 28:02

You get to that point where what do you believe?

Jason 28:05

You start wondering, okay, what's actually going on? You know, how do I determine whether this is true or something?

Melanie 28:09

You get new sources from here, you get new sources from here.

Jason 28:12

And it always conflicts, and it's like very conflicting. Who is correct?

Melanie 28:16

Is it local? Is it national?

Jason 28:17

Is it worldly where is this coming from?

Melanie 28:20

And and then it got really twisted from there. And so um the the article that we got, some of this um more fake news stuff uh from Politico, it kind of it was written in 2016, so it's not today's time, right? So it's it's before all of the um uh maybe slightly crazier news setting that started in 2020. Polarization of everything being so um, but it's it's pretty much like throwing in the towel at the the end of the article is saying, you know, um everybody's getting more and more news sources from social media and and fake news is is gonna be just an accepted idea.

Jason 29:07

Right. Well and so that's kind of it's hard not to encounter it every day now. Right. Right. And that was almost 10 years ago, too. Right.

Melanie 29:22

So in 2016, that's almost ten years ago. So today's time of of 2025 going into 2026, not too long from now, you know, we're actually starting to see a difference now in what fake news is creating. And what it's creating is is so many non believers that now truth is just kind of shot. So, which may be a good thing.

Jason 29:53

What do you mean by that?

Melanie 29:54

Well, it kind of in the that whole idea of yellow journalism where you know where you are Um you know, talking about the they are able to create a war off of propaganda, let's pull back.

Jason 30:09

Yeah, I see.

Melanie 30:11

So let's let's not trust these few very large newspapers and and pull back into a local concept. Maybe that's where we kind of need to be. We need to understand truth on a a different scale than what we started with.

Jason 30:31

Yeah, I mean, certainly being being in groups and you know, kind of embracing your local area and being able to get information out is important, but I think part of the challenge with that, the methods in which we do that is still in mainstream far-reaching method. I mean, you know, say social media.

Melanie 30:53

But it's gotten so fake you believe nothing.

Jason 30:55

Right. I know.

Melanie 30:56

Which again, maybe it's a a great answer.

Jason 31:01

And it it's the problem too, you're hiding behind a profile. Would we act differently speaking face to face?

Melanie 31:08

Well yeah.

Jason 31:08

Would we act differently actually writing out something? You know that extra hint of humanity with that you know, are we lying to ourselves just as much as lying to someone else when we feel like what we're saying isn't even I mean, we know it's not real. But does it really feel real when you're using it through a platform that you you're kind of hiding behind? It it it in itself isn't tangible. So what does that mean psychologically? Are we I don't know. Because I mean you see a lot of people posting stuff online and making comments about that, and you kind of go, I wouldn't say that, but what do they gotta lose? You know?

Melanie 31:54

Right.

Jason 31:55

Well, they don't know these people exactly, so there's specifically there's no tie.

Melanie 32:00

Which is kind of maybe what might bring us back into truth is a little more in front of you. Truth is um or or you know, we can go with Plato. Okay, what about um Plato's idea of truth. Um again, you know, ancient history is fascinating because they're really still dealing with the same thing. Sure. The human understanding.

Jason 32:30

Right.

Melanie 32:30

Um, so obviously Plato is a Greek philosopher. And the truth for Plato is the unchanging of reality. So um I'll go ahead and directly quote the philosopher is in love with the philosopher is in love with truth. That is not with the changing world of sensation, which is an object of opinion, but with an unchanging reality, which is the object of knowledge. So that unchanging reality, that human spirit, that um what makes us truth, you know, what makes us real, that is the thing, and and I don't think Plato's wrong at all in this, that that is that's the truth.

Jason 33:21

Yeah.

Melanie 33:22

Those those sensationalized bits. I think that's when we need to take pause when something's, you know, when it's too good to be true. Right. Oh, I mean, exactly. Yeah, you know, and and those little, especially in the pol politics and stuff like that, if it looks like, oh, that really fits what I think, you probably fake. You know what that neither one are gonna fit what you think. The truth is somewhere in the thing that maybe makes you slightly uncomfortable because that is politics. Yeah, exactly. If you're not slightly uncomfortable on one side or the other, then you're believing Snakeal. You know, it should be, you know, truth is not always delicious. It's it's gonna be, you know, it's gonna have some some sour in there somewhere.

Jason 34:10

Yeah, that makes sense.

Melanie 34:11

And it's gonna be something that's you know, more trusted in that, you know, unchanging idea.

Jason 34:21

Yeah. So what do you think the fix with with all this is like how how do you see the future since this is what we're dealing with? And of course, um, you know, we were talking a little bit about initially with AI and how there are videos that aren't real. Um we've talked about stories that aren't real, there are products going to New York or wherever, things that aren't real. Where do we go if we can't trust anything? Like what what how do we how do we combat this?

Melanie 34:59

Well, just like when you um are are taking in Bible study. When you read the Bible, you can't just um read it in tiny little pieces.

Jason 35:10

Right.

Melanie 35:10

Um, so you of course we do, and we put you know, verses out there um that mean something to us. And you know, you're taking and you're extracting from the sure the story itself, but at some point that's the the truth is in the story, the whole thing. And if it doesn't kind of have a um if it's not repeated, like like a backing to something. Yeah, if it doesn't have backing, if it's not constant, then um, then it's just a piece.

Jason 35:42

Okay.

Melanie 35:42

Then it's just a uh one idea, it's not the whole thing.

Jason 35:46

Right.

Melanie 35:46

The whole thing needs backing, it needs all of it. Um it's so it needs to kind of keep showing up.

Jason 35:51

Sure.

Melanie 35:51

Kind of the same thing with reality versus we'll go with AI reality, where it's you know, if it has no real backing, yeah, you you pretty much, you know, know that that's there's nothing true about it.

Jason 36:07

Right.

Melanie 36:08

And you know, we do need to to teach. Um, we do as much as we can and repeat ourselves um way too often.

Jason 36:18

Right.

Melanie 36:19

But you know, we do need to teach that discernment, um, especially when they're young.

Jason 36:23

Yeah.

Melanie 36:24

Um, we do that too, our kids so they roll their eyes, but you know, I I want to make sure that they know that not everything you see is true.

Jason 36:30

Yeah, exactly.

Melanie 36:31

And and so we we need to teach discernment, we need to teach um critical thinking skills. And and we do need to make sure that we are putting a lot of effort into teaching those critical thinking skills, not just, you know, um you can't always believe what you hear, but you know, really dig deep in why is this wrong?

Jason 36:54

Sure.

Melanie 36:55

You know, why would you believe something like this? You know, that kind of thing. Really dig deep in everything that you hear because you know, a lot of it's gonna be propaganda.

Jason 37:04

Yeah, and and like you talked about having a backing, everything you do here, you kind of try to attach it to something you're comfortable with or familiar with, or you know, where do I put this? And if it's just out of left field doesn't make sense, and that's something to wonder about, and you got to ask the questions what's the motivation? Why would someone say this? You know, you know, where's the credibility? And you just need to learn those skills.

Melanie 37:27

Right. So and and the most tangible answer is, you know, I'm almost positive that for a new job in society is gonna be authenticators. And authenticators, so someone that evaluates and I used to sell um, you know, vintage furniture, uh antiques, things like that. In the antique world, um, people can authenticate your antique. Sure. Um, they can authenticate your your papers, uh, things like that. There's very, very small group of people that have that capability of um digging into and and knowing this kind of stuff. You know, we've got wonderful shows on, you know, the TV with you know authenticators that sure like like like anti-gro show. Anti-grocho. Um and what's the newer one?

Jason 38:25

It's uh pawn stars.

Melanie 38:30

Pawn stars, that's it. Exactly. And and so they'll authenticate the things that you know people have brought in.

Jason 38:36

Sure.

Melanie 38:37

I think that we will um you know find more and more um job opportunities for people that really have a niche, they know something just really, really well, right. They become authenticators.

Jason 38:55

And it makes sense. I mean, kind of having a a big broad knowledge about something specific. I know that sounds almost like a a paradox, but um being able to discern, being able to be the uh the referee or whatever, saying, Okay, yes, this is real, this is not. Um maybe I guess legal instances or right.

Melanie 39:18

I mean, you have fake videos, the fake pictures, the the paperwork, um, you can fake history.

Jason 39:24

Yeah, fake paperwork, exactly. And it's like, hey, I mean, because we can make anything look real, especially in the digital world. Here's a document. I mean, how many times do we have documents that we need to send out and whatever? You would have to analyze it and make sure that this is actually to the code of the file. Yes, this was not fabricated using any means, you know. Uh, but yeah, yeah, I can certainly see that.

Melanie 39:48

You've got lawyers, you've got, you know, um the other people that are are fighting for constitution and truth and things like that. I think you're gonna have authenticators as an actual job that you go around and make sure that things are actually true.

Jason 40:06

Isn't it funny? Because I mean, I just think back to say 15 years ago, we'd look at the web to look up something to see if it was true.

Melanie 40:12

Right.

Jason 40:13

And now we're thinking about a new career to discern whether what we find or interact with is actually true.

Melanie 40:20

Right.

Jason 40:21

So again, full circle, times haven't changed.

Melanie 40:24

Not really.

Jason 40:25

I think I need to get a loan on a ship.

Melanie 40:27

Uh no, no, no.

Jason 40:29

I can get a loan on a ship I don't own, and it's easy. You still have a soul and you need to make sure that's maintained. Definitely, definitely.

Melanie 40:36

So And so what I guess also what does it mean for AI?

Jason 40:40

Right.

Melanie 40:41

I mean you know, or we we use AI, AI is our fun co-host. It is, you know, or it's not to shove this whole concept aside.

Jason 40:53

Not at all.

Melanie 40:54

And I think at some point we just have to see it as art.

Jason 40:59

Yeah. I mean, it is based on, I mean, you kind of need to interpret it in some way too. I guess kind of like art.

Melanie 41:08

Mm-hmm. And um art is is a communication, it's an interpretated, you know, interpretation of you know, something that you're trying to relay to someone else.

Jason 41:19

Right.

Melanie 41:19

And so when we have fake out there on social media or out there on the internet and stuff like that, right, you know, it is art.

Jason 41:29

And I think a big part of why um it's being used is because I can create a video or modify a video or audio or whatever and make it seem so realistic. And and that that's the manipulative angle. It's like this is believable because your eyes and your ears say, wow, uh that's gotta be true. But there's art in the creation of that.

Melanie 41:55

And so, you know, we can't, you know, just always be afraid of it. We can see it as art. Yeah, definitely and see it as a communication in a way, you know. If you go into any um museum with like really older or you know, classic stuff, classic paintings, that kind of thing, you know, you look at the Madonna. You know, half of them she's blonde. You know, which we know that's not you know good old Renaissance, right? It's not even possible, it's not true, but it's it's the eye of the beholder, it's the interpretation. It's the relatable perspective, right? So who who decided to paint it? Yeah, it's not meant to show you, you know, truth.

Jason 42:40

Right.

Melanie 42:40

It's meant to show you an interpretation, yeah.

Jason 42:43

Exactly.

Melanie 42:43

And in that interpretation, maybe a feeling.

Jason 42:46

Sure.

Melanie 42:46

And so I think we need to kind of go into this whole new AI setting as it's not meant to be truth.

Jason 42:54

Yeah.

Melanie 42:54

It was never meant to be truth.

Jason 42:56

Well, well, even in using it as a tool, they say, you know, in other words, check anything that's important, you know, don't always check back. You know, which again, the whole purpose of using it as a tool, just like on good we used to say, oh, it's on the internet, it must have been true. Well, what do you think AI is? It's scrubbing the internet and all the sources. So if you don't true on the internet, you won't know it's not true on the answer. Right. If you don't know your answer well enough to be able to tell whether that's fact or fiction or, you know, inaccurate, then maybe you should reconsider how you're using it and to and to check things. But you know, it's just just to blame the technology, you know, uh mindlessly, I don't think is a good approach.

Melanie 43:39

Right. I mean, keep going with the the authenticity. Yeah. Um, those who are writing articles, those who are sure, you know, putting things out there to really still dig into historical fact and things like that. Keep putting that kind of stuff out there and and become an authenticator and some really dig deep into something that you're very passionate about.

Jason 44:03

Know your craft.

Melanie 44:04

Be the authenticator for the the next shift.

Jason 44:07

Be your library of Alexandria for what you're passionate about, and then help others figure out what is what.

Melanie 44:14

Yes, we need to always have those people that really had that niche.

Jason 44:19

Definitely. Sounds good. Well, that was that was pretty interesting. I learned a lot historically, and as far as um how a lot of these things really have just played themselves century after century, and you know, just different scenarios.

Melanie 44:34

Right. And that's the whole thing is there is no fake news under the that's new under the sun.

Jason 44:41

Right.

Melanie 44:41

There is no con that's new under the sun.

Jason 44:43

Yep, tail as old as time.

Melanie 44:45

We do it differently now, but it's not new by any means.

Jason 44:49

Yep, different tool, but same thing. Yep.

Melanie 44:52

Same human.

Jason 44:53

Same human, well, yeah.

Melanie 44:54

Yeah.

Jason 44:55

Exactly. So all right. Well, I think we're gonna wrap things up and uh please review or follow us on your favorite platform while you're there. Just go ahead and take care of it. It really helps us get us out there more, and uh always appreciate the feedback. Um visit winternetweb.com, check out some of the products that we have, uh, some unique merchandise that we have online. You can continue your Christmas shopping today with an interesting gift for your Tech Geek Fanatic. And we have a lot of other neat things there, but unplugging for now.

Melanie 45:30

But always stay connected.